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Best method for proving in Court that poker is mostly skill

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  • Started 2 years ago by Skallagrim
  • Latest reply from Jason Waters

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  1. Skallagrim
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    This was my original post on this subject, Posted way back on Friday, Feb 16, 2007

    I am posting this in a few places to be sure it gets noticed.

    More than 1/2 of the US states define "gambling" as participating in a game where "the outcome is predominantly determined by chance." Logically then, if it can be shown that poker outcomes are not result of chance more than 1/2 the time, we will have shown poker is not 'gambling' and therefore LEGAL in those states. Here is the best method I have come up with for convincing judges and or juries (most of whom have only a limited familiarity with poker) that poker is, more often than not, DETERMINED BY THE ACTIONS OF THE PLAYERS, AND THUS NOT CHANCE. Your comments will be appreciated.

    First, define the terms:

    "chance" is the random distribution of the cards.
    "outcome" is who wins and how much.

    Now consider a fair representative number of poker hands at any table, and remember, showing chance means the outcome is determined by the cards.

    So, first, every hand that does not go to showdown was the clealry result of player actions, not the cards (there is no rule that says you HAVE to fold 2-7 or call/raise with A-A). In most forms of poker this is the way most hands are resolved (all but one person folds before all the cards are revealed).

    Second, when hands do go to showdown, that is a choice of the players and that should count for something.

    Third, who is at the showdown is detemined by player decisions (to call, fold or raise), not the cards. And quite often the person who would have had the best hand has folded long before all the cards are shown. That also counts for something.

    Fourth, even at the showdown the more skilled player will be in the advantage (he who has the best pre-river hand is there usually because his skills -math AND psychology- tell him he has that hand). So are the cards determining who goes into a showdown with the hand most likely to win, or is it the skill (or lack thereof) of the players?

    Fifth, even at the showdown, the underdog only wins less than half the time because, of course, thats why he is the underdog!

    And finally, the amount of the win (especially significant in tournament poker) has been determined completely by the players (though structured by the betting rules), not the cards.

    So put all that together, and the only time you can really say that chance DETERMINES the outcome in poker is when there is a showdown and the less skilled player gets lucky and hits his or her improbable card. We all know that happens in poker, we also all know that happens far, far less than half the time.

    Dont talk to me here about bankroll management, or long term v short term and how you have to play the percentages. Those concepts are absolutely important for being an overall money winner in poker, but they fail to show to the average person that a typical hand of poker is more often than not the result of a player's skill/decisions than chance.

    Please do respond, however, this is an important part of the fight to get/keep poker legal (in most states anyway) and before I use this argument in a Court I want it thoroughly tested!

    Skallagrim

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. Skallagrim
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    After I posted the above proof here and on a few other sites, it was noticed by PPA Board Member and Poker Professional Howard Lederer. His nickname, some of you might know, is the professor.

    Mr. Lederer took my proof and added it to some ideas he had been musing over and produced what is, IMHO, the best written argument that poker is a game of mostly skill to date. You can find the article here: http://gpsts.org/poker-a-game-of-skill/ (its the 3rd of the 3 articles, scroll down)

    Howard continues to work on this topic and is in the process of producing a update of the above article. When he has, the Litigation Support Network of the PPA will use that as the basis of our plan to have the ultimate "poker is mostly skill therefore not gambling" legal argument available for all who need it.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Skallagrim
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    And recently on 2+2, I got into a thread discussing proving the skill factor dominant in poker with this entry, which I really like, if I do say so myself:

    [After reading through a number of proposed arguments] All of you are making some good points, but there are a fair number of false premises here that all of you seem to ignore:

    1) "Poker is luck in the short run but skill in the long run." This is logically and mathematically impossible as stated. No "generated results" can be due to mostly chance for x number of trials and then magically transform into becoming due to mostly skill by going to x+y number of trials. Any single result will have the same probability of either being due to chance or being due to skill each and every time.
    What players mean when they make this statement is not what they are saying, players mean that your skill cannot GUARANTEE success in the short run, but it can guarantee success in the long run. And that is because a result that has, for example, a probability of being due to skill 51% of the time, may not actually show 51% until there are a statistically significant number of trials. But the probability of each trial being due to one factor or the other is always the same.

    2) "Poker is a game of Skill." Poker is not a game of skill. Poker is a game of MOSTLY skill. Anyone who has ever played poker knows that chance (the random distribution of the cards) can determine the outcome of a poker hand. Regular players call these events "Bad Beats" and it is foolish to deny their existence. Luckily, as a legal matter, we do not have to deny their existence, we only have to show that the chance element in poker is responsible for determining less than half the outcomes in poker.

    3) "Showing skill is shown by evidence of regular winning at poker." Regular winning at poker is clear proof that there is some skill element in poker; if poker were a game of pure chance there would be as many professional poker players as there are professional slot players. But as has been correctly noted above, showing that a skill element must exist does not by itself satisfy the legal test of showing that skill is the DOMINANT element.

    It is also very important in this quest to not confuse "skill" with "edge." A player's "edge" (the degree to which they are better than an average player) is a virtually impossible thing to quantify in a game of incomplete information like poker. At least so far my review of the literature shows no one has been able to do this. But I encourage you math wizards to keep trying. If you can do it, it would be an important part of the proof that poker is mostly skill. This is also part of the long-term-short term confusion: you all instinctively recognize that your "edge" is not likely to manifest itself on any given hand, but should surely show up after a significant number of hands.

    All thats really needed, however, to answer the legal question of whether skill or chance predominates in determining poker outcomes is to correctly understand what is meant by skill.

    When Tiger Woods hits his tee shot right onto the green of a par 3, we all recognize that as an ACT OF SKILL. When Johnny Duffer who has never played golf before hits an identical shot, it is still an ACT OF SKILL even though the fact that Johnny hit the ball correctly this time was more due to luck than the personal application of skill. If it is the specific application of an act of skill that matters, then every game with a skill element is a game of skill when played by a good player, and a game of luck when played by a bad player. And although this is true in some sense, that is not the sense that is being asked for in the legal test. Golf is not a legal game of skill when Tiger plays for money, but an illegal gambling event when Johnny plays for money. The inherent nature of a game does not change depending on who is playing, it is either mostly skill or mostly luck depending on whether acts of skill mostly determine the result or whether acts of chance mostly determine the result.

    Once the distinction is made between "acts of skill" and actual application of personal ability to an "act of skill" the proof that poker is a game of mostly skill becomes clear and obvious: MOST POKER HANDS (AND THE AMOUNT OF THE POT) ARE DETERMINED BY HUMAN ACTS OF SKILL NOT THE RANDOM DISTRIBUTION OF THE CARDS. In fact those online databases show that somewhere between 2 out of 3 and 4 out 5 of all poker hands end because all players have folded to the winner. In those hands the random distribution of the cards is never consulted. A factor that is not consulted (though it may remain a factor) is undeniably not determining the outcome, people doing acts of skill (betting, raising, calling, folding) are determining the outcome.

    As to hands where the cards are actually used to determine the outcome (when there is a showdown), the analysis is more complex. But one way to look at it might be to ask how often the person who was dealt the hand that would have won had all players stayed in, actually wins. Here the online databases show that the hand that would have won had it stayed to the end actually wins only about 40% of the time. So again, human actions, acts of skill, are determining the outcome in hands that go to showdown 60% of the time.

    The overall conclusion therefore has to be that of the two elements of the game of poker (1st element is the random distribution of the cards - 2nd element is the actions of the players in betting, raising, folding and calling) the "skill" element is determining the outcome somewhere between 85 and 93 percent of the time.

    So you all know, this is the argument that the Poker Players Alliance Litigation Support Team (of which I am the lead attorney) plans to use in Court. It is simple, it is logical, it is consistent with people's general impression of poker, requires no advanced math to understand, and it is backed up by statistics based on analyzing MILLIONS of hands.

    The cards you are dealt do matter in poker, but not as much as how you play them; therefore poker is a game of mostly skill. It is also thus not illegal "gambling" in about 35 of the 50 states.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. Marc Adreani
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    what are the 15 states that this thinking would still remain illegal?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    I've always thought a significant argument for whether or not poker is a game of skill would be to run a chi square test on a sample dataset of tournaments.

    A chi square test tests the null hypothesis, that is, there is no significant difference between the expected and the observed result.

    If poker is a game of luck then the expected hypothesis is that there is a "normal" distribution of tournament winners. By normal it is meant that in one table, ten person tournaments, the normal distribution would be to win one out of every ten times (10% of the time).

    We all know the observed result will differ and therefore be a mathematical proof that poker is indeed a game of skill.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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    azmarc123 asks: what are the 15 states that this thinking would still remain illegal?

    While I don't know the exact answer to this question, I can explain it and provide some of the U.S. states.

    Laws exist making poker illegal based on differing criteria throughout the USA. As the original article here states, about 1/2 of the US states have a definition of "gambling" and then go on to outlaw "gambling". This thread was apparently meant to attack the middle leg of the gambling stool (Consideration, Chance, Reward) by showing that gambling was a game of skill, not chance.

    Some states have laws that do not rely on gambling, but specifically make "poker" illegal. According to the particular state's criminal code they may not rely on a definition of gambling. For instance several states have specifically outlawed "internet poker" or have some law that exists outside the skill vs. chance argument.

    Some of those states are:
    * Michigan
    * Illinois
    * Louisiana
    * Oregon
    * Washington
    * Wisconsin
    * Indiana
    * Nevada
    * South Dakota
    * New Jersey
    * New York

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. My local state rep in NE sent me a PDF document that explains why poker is illegal because it meets the criteria listed here: http://www.pickspokertables.com/NEgamblinglaw.pdf

    Basically they say if there is any kind of entry fee and if players can win any kind of prize, the event would not be legal.

    There are three elements for an activity to be considered gambling:
    1) Consideration - if they have to pay in any way
    2) Chance - outcome is predominantly based on chance. They give credit to players ability to influence the game with their skill but in this article their last sentence is this: "So while poker is a game of considerable skill, the level of skill does not overcome the element of chance."
    3) Reward - they win something then it's illegal

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Skallagrim
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    Hi PicksPokerTables.

    The brochure you linked is impressive to the extent that it actually acknowledges that there is "considerable skill" in playing poker.

    Note, however, the statement that no amount of skill can change the cards and that that "is how most hands are decided (bluffing not withstanding)." WE can prove this statement to be false. Actually, only 24% of poker hands (on average) are resolved by the cards being revealed and the hands being compared. And even among that 24% about 1/2 the time the player who would have turned up the best hand has folded before the showdown. Player decisions, not the cards, determine who wins and who loses in poker, and how much they win or lose.

    This is precisely the type of argument the PPA Litigation Support Network was created to take on in Court. We have done so 3 times now, in South Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Colorado. We have WON all three times (though appeals are under way so the victories are not yet final). Could Nebraska be next? I am ready anytime they want to have a hearing and present their argument versus our argument. May the better argument win. I think you know which one I believe is the better argument.

    Skallagrim

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Steven Zack
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    Hi PicksPokerTables. Does NE have a state lotto, if so i would go to your local state rep in NE, tell him that it is a illegal game.
    Thought, well wining freerolls that would be legal, you did not pay to play.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Ironic that NE allows lotto, Bingo, pickle cards and Keno isn't it?

    Skallagrim, I may need the Litigation support as you know I'm going to try and get the state to consider legalizing charity poker tournaments in NE. Need to learn more about how the poker rooms are set up and how the money is allocated between the players, the poker room, charities and the state. I'm focusing on how MI does it although I'm only trying to propose legalizing tournaments for now and not cash games or other types of gambling like black jack.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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