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1. Rich Muny
   State Director & Forum Admin
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   Now that we've quieted down the attempts to overrun the forum with "online poker is rigged" conspiracy posts, it's time to start a thread for posts on the subject.

   If you wish to make an "online poker is rigged" conspiracy post and have no data or evidence to back it up, this is the ONLY thread on the PPA Forums where such posts are acceptable. Posts on the subject made elsewhere will be deleted (I'd prefer to simply move them, but the forum software does not have that capability.)

   That being said, if someone feels a site is rigged and posts statistical data to back it up, such posts are (as they always have been) permitted on the general forum.

   From the FAQ:

   What are the PPA Forums not?

   The PPA Forums are NOT places to post conspiracy theories about "rigged sites." Such posts may be made only at Official bad beat/'online poker is rigged' thread". Such posts made elsewhere on the forum will be deleted, and those making such posts may be banned. Posters with usernames like "xx_site_is_rigged" who post outside "Official bad beat/'online poker is rigged' thread" may be banned as well.

   Sorry, but poker has a high variance. Less skilled players often stay in to the end, hoping for a miracle card. Deal with it.

   It's your responsibility as a player to adjust to other players, not for them to adjust to you. If you regularly bluff calling stations, expect to lose money. If you're surprised that calling stations stay in to the bitter end, expect to lose money.

   Nor are PPA Forums a place to post personal attacks against people who disagree with you. We're all on the same side.

   Posted 12 months ago #

2. HoldemEagle
   Member
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   I posted this in another thread and thought I would also post it here. If this is agaisnt the rules please delete one of them.

   I had to chime in with my opinion on this one. Free speech doesn't give
   you the right to yell fire when there is no evidence of a fire or call
   someone a thief when you have no evidence that they are a thief.

   The cards have been running really bad for me for a couple of months. So
   I watched some good players in the games I was playing (SnG 180's) to see
   if I was doing anything that might be adding to this bad run. I also
   checked to see if the good players ever run bad like me. I checked their
   ROI per 100 games because I check my ROI per 100 games. What I found was
   they ran as bad and sometimes worse than I do. They also ran very good in
   some of the 100 games. Running bad for 1 or 2 hundred games was common
   and they would flat line sometimes for up to 1200 games or more. But in
   the end the good runs made up for the bad and they had +ROI. The good
   players I checked played 30 to 100 games a day. Running bad for a couple
   of 100 games to them would be over in a few days and even the 1200 games
   would be over in a few weeks. The casual player might only play say 5
   games a day. 200 games of running bad to him would take 6 weeks to get
   through. The swings will be worse for the casual players because most
   casual players are not as good as the Pro's. This running bad/good is
   normal and that is the reason bankroll management is a skill that needs
   to be learned.

   IMO the bigger sites are legit because it can only hurt them not to be.
   Also IMO licensing and regulation would protect the players more from smaller
   and start up sites who would be force to give evidence of who the owner
   is before they could get a license. IMO licensing and regulation would
   also give you a place to get help if any site has wronged you.

   I like the following articles and thought I would include the links.

   Mentality of a closer

   Bankroll Management

   glgl

   Posted 12 months ago #

3. William Schoonmaker
   Member
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   That is a very good comment on people thinking there is cheating going on due to bad beats however real fraud has occurred as we are all aware. The DealGuardian service continues to try and break into online poker but it being shunned by the majority of the rooms. This service would allow the players to be protected by a third party with no stake in the outcome of the game. It hides and encrypts the down cards from everyone except the player who needs to see them. As a founder of the company I am trying to gauge interest from the players in this service with the intent on getting all poker rooms to use it, similar to the eCogra certification that most rooms seek these days. Please take a moment to complete our survey by going to http://www.securecarddealer.com/survey.aspx .

   Thanks for reading and good luck out there on the tables!

   Posted 11 months ago #

4. Eric Blade
   Moderator
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   Considering that the hole cards are only known by (a) the server (b) the player that has them on.. EVERY site.. otherwise every site would have been totally hacked within minutes of it being online.. that's a completely useless pitch.

   The AP superuser (and I presume UB as well, if they had the asme thing going, I never really looked into UB) had compromised the server, to tell his program specifically, what everyone else's cards were (and i think it wasn't even talking to the absolute client, i think it was actually talking to another program that was probably custom written to receive that information from the server), and that could easily be done by anyone who is capable of compromising the servers at such a low level, no matter how many layers of protection you put in, because the server has to know what everyone's hole cards are. You have to absolutely trust that no one else would allow that kind of infiltration of their servers, otherwise you just can't play online poker, period.

   And, if you're moving the information about the cards around to a third party, then you actually are INSERTING more points of failure in the system, by using the service you are trying to provide there. If you're dealing for all the major poker sites, and your servers know the cards, you are going to have a huge, huge, huge amount of people trying to crack your system, and the more you throw at it, the easier it becomes to crack.

   IMO, the reason why your service is being shunned by the majority of the rooms, is because now you become a central point of failure for all rooms you work with, and you provide a service that they already have to provide, by default.

   *remember, just because i am a moderator for the forum does not mean that i am in any way representing the opinions of the PPA, just speaking my own views.

   Posted 11 months ago #

5. Nick Maiorana
   Member
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   eblade, those are good points. But the problem is that the card rooms servers have the active hand information which is stored for auditing purposes. That is how the UB and Absolute incidents took place. As long as active hand information is available on the site where the games are being run, internal fraud is possible.

   Every industry that deals in the transacting of cash puts in safeguards to prevent such events. Dealing cards out to players is no different because the outcome has a monetary value tied to it. If information about player down cards and future cards to come is not present on the gaming site, then the ability to perform fraudulent activities is greatly reduced. DG provides this service.

   DG also provides players with the assurance that no one is manipulating the cards in order to generate action or to bust players out. There is a great deal of concern in the industry of the games being fixed or rigged. And if you consider the vast amount of cash stored in these accounts is owned by the poker room, every cash deposit is a win for the room, and any withdrawal is a loss. So it is in the room's best interest for players to bust out and re-load. Hence, the possibility of card manipulation becomes real.

   The argument for them not having to resort to such tactics because they make enough money on the rake and tournament fees is bull. Brick-n-mortar casinos also have a very profitable business model. However, without tight regulation by third parties, casinos used to rig their systems to cheat their patrons. Unregulated online poker is no different and until a reliable entity steps in you can't trust the rooms to police themselves.

   In fact, several poker rooms became insolvent in the past year due to misappropriation of funds in their accounts. These accounts were intended to hold on to player's funds, yet in an effort to generate more revenue, these rooms used the cash to make investments that went bad. A lot of players lost their deposits and will never see them again.

   The point I'm trying to make is that it's not just about getting the rake. There is an opportunity for the rooms to use the funds as investments and it is in their best interest, not the players, to get their own person bankroll as large as possible. One way to do that is to fix the decks so that players go bust. With a service like DG, you take that ability away and give the players an honest game.

   A third party, not benefiting from the outcome of any hand being played is the only way to ensure that cards are not being manipulated or used in an unfair manner.

   Sorry this is so long winded. I would like to speak to you further on this subject. Please send me an email at nick@securecarddealer.com and maybe we can setup a phone conversation.

   Thanks
   Nick

   Posted 11 months ago #

6. Nick Maiorana
   Member
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   As a side note. I was Speaking to a player a few nights ago about this subject. In his mind when one player busts out, another player gets his cash. However, since the funds used to play at the tables are virtual, they never leave the poker room's account unless the funds are w/drawn by a player.

   Posted 11 months ago #

7. Eric Blade
   Moderator
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   Nick,

   Someone else made a seperate thread to continue with the discussion of your product there. I will continue over there. :)

   Posted 10 months ago #

8. MakePokerLegal
   Member
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   With very little online poker sites that are legal in the United States. NonRiggedPoker.com is one of the few online poker sites that is 100% legal in the United States, and all over the world. There are no deposits; players have the chance to win over $100,000 in cash each month, and with prizes from the UFC, TapOut, Hard Rock, Las Vegas trips, Playstation, X Box and more; this is truly a blessing for anyone who wants to play online poker and comply with the state/federal laws. So to all our PPA friends, feel free to check it out. All the information is well put together on the website. Every 15 minutes is another tournament so there is always action. There are Cash Tournaments, Prize Tournaments, VIP Tournaments and Championship Tournaments and much more.

   Posted 5 months ago #

9. Gary Reed
   State Director & Moderator
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   O.k. so as to "rigged" games online I can only reiterate what I said in my book "Kitchen Table Poker". If you play online you run the risk of being cheated. Not necessarily by the site itself (however that has happened in the past) but by other players at your table. Think of the several ways one might gain an unfair advantage, such as; several players at a ring game table who are instant messaging each other while playing, telling each other what their card are, plotting strategy, shilling for each other etc. Or, in a tournament, such as a two or three table sit-n-go where two friends are at the same table. One can “dump” his chips to the other creating an artificially large chip stack. The list of “what can be” goes on and on. If you can imagine it, someone, somewhere, is doing it. In a brick and mortar casino, if you are signaling or indicating what you hold, someone will pick up on it eventually and you will be shut down. No such thing online. There are people who will find a way to cheat no matter what you do about it. That’s human nature.

   Posted 5 months ago #

10. johnnyblue
    Member
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    It's funny to see how many people think losing 3 consecutive 80% outcomes means they MUST have been cheated. Most people playing poker got C's in high school math...

    Posted 5 months ago #

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