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Poker Players Alliance Forums » State - NV

1. Dianna Donofrio
   State Director
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   If ever anyone had a doubt that poker is not a game of SKILL this years World Series of Poker certainly demonstrates that poker is most assurdley a game of SKILL.
   The following information, as reported by WSOP's own Nolan Dalla, gives us the following information:

   Through the conclusion of Event #50, the 2009 WSOP has attracted 46,283 entries. $97,204,540 in total prize money has been awarded to winners.

   Multiple Gold Bracelet Winners at the 2009 WSOP:
   Jeffrey Lisandro -- 1st,1st,1st Brock Parker -- 1st,1st Phil Ivey -- 1st,1st
   Greg Mueller – 1st, 1st

   Gold Bracelet Plus 2nd-Place Finishers at the 2009 WSOP:
   Ville Wahlbeck -- 1st, 2nd (+ 3rd)
   James Van Alstyne -- 1st, 2nd (+ 6th)
   Pete "The Greek" Vilandos -- 1st, 2nd
   Angel Guillen -- 1st, 2nd
   Vitaly Lunkin -- 1st, 2nd
   Brandon Cantu – 1st, 2nd
   Marc Naalden – 1st, 2nd

   Multiple Top-Three Finishers at the 2009 WSOP:
   Ville Wahlbeck -- 1st, 2nd, 3rd
   Steve Sung -- 1st, 3rd
   Scott Clements -- 2nd, 3rd
   Eric Baldwin – 1st, 3rd

   Professionals -36 wins
   Thang Luu, Steven Sung, Jason Mercier, Phil Ivey-1, Rami Boukai, Anthony Harb, Ville Wahlbeck, Keven Stammen, Brock Parker-1, Jeffrey Lisandro- 1, Daniel Alaei, Brock Parker-2, John-Paul Kelly, Jeff Carris, Nick Schulman, Phil Ivey-2, Pete Vilandos, Tomas Alenius, Roland de Wolfe, J.C. Tran, James Van Alstyne, Angel, Guillen, Greg Mueller-1, Eric Baldwin, Jordan Smith, Jeffrey Lisandro-2, Richard Austin, Marc Naalden, Matt Graham, Peter Traply, Jerrod Ankenman, Jeffrey Lisandro-3, John Kabbaj, Jeff Ahmadi, Brandon Cantu, Greg Mueller-2)

   Fourteen of the 50 winners this year (28 percent) were previous gold bracelet winners. There have been three double winners in 2009 -- Brock Parker, Phil Ivey, and Greg “FBT” Mueller. There has been one triple winner in 2009 -- Jeffrey Lisandro.

   The World Series of Poker (WSOP) is the largest, richest and most prestigious gaming event in the world awarding millions of dollars in prize money and the prestigious gold bracelet, globally recognized as the sport's top prize. Featuring a comprehensive slate of tournaments in every major poker variation, the WSOP is poker's longest running tournament in the world, dating back to 1970. In 2008, the event attracted 58,720 entrants from 124 different countries to the Rio in Las Vegas and awarded over $180 million in prize money. The creation of the new delayed Main Event final table more than doubled ratings on ESPN year-over-year. In December, 2008 the WSOP was named the 7th most admired sports brand in North America by the Turnkey Team Brand Index trailing only the more established NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, NASCAR and PGA Tour among sports properties. In addition, the WSOP has formed groundbreaking alliances in broadcasting, digital media and corporate sponsorships, while successfully expanding the brand internationally with the advent in 2007 of the World Series of Poker Europe.

   Posted 8 months ago #

2. Skallagrim
   State Director & Moderator
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   Excellent information DEDEWSOP! Thank you!

   If you don't mind, I am going to leave this post where it is for a few days, but then I would like to move it to the "Ask Skallagrim" Forum so it can be kept with other information relating to our argument that "Poker is a game of mostly skill and therefore not illegal gambling."

   Thanks again,

   Skallagrim

   Posted 8 months ago #

3. Dianna Donofrio
   State Director
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   Thank you. Glad you are adding to the "Ask Skallagrim" Forum. Will keep you updated on additional stats from the 2009 World Series of Poker.

   Posted 8 months ago #

4. Big Jim Slade v2.0
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   The message above is certainly encouraging.

   However, to address the science behind it, I'm not sure I see (in the message) how the repeat winners suggest the presence of skill. The science of large numbers would suggest that with a large number of entrants into tournaments, you would expect to have multiple winners that also won in previous years. It is well known to have players win repeat prizes in different years in games such as the lottery. These repeat lottery winners often do not believe luck is how they win.

   If a million people walked into a casino and played for three hours or less only table games - known to be luck only no skill - the mathematics would suggest that about 1/3 of the players would walk away as winners. By winner, I mean walk away with more money than they came in with. This is proven scientific fact and can be proven both empirically and theoretically.

   To suggest these table games players were skillful at roulette, slots, or even blackjack would sound nice, and is certainly a myth the casinos wish to perpetuate. But most of us would agree these repeat winners do not represent skill at the slots, only luck.

   In the same fashion, these poker winners sound encouraging, but where is the science that distinguishes between a lucky poker player and a skillful slots player?

   How can one state that a group of poker winners represent skill, but a group of slots winners only represent luck?

   I submit there is a need for a Luckometer that can measure the difference between luck and skill. I submit also that a Luckometer can be built which will in fact measure the difference between luck and skill and scientifically measure the deviations between the two.

   Does anyone have any thoughts?

   Posted 8 months ago #

5. Charles Marshall
   State Director & Moderator
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   You know that is very interesting Big. First of all I am no mathematician and I am not sure how this works but at the casino I play at here in Arizona. For the record, I only play poker and don't consider it to be gambling. During one of my last sessions a dealer said that slots were in fact a game that players play against each other or rather that is how the casino categorizes it. I'm not sure if other casinos view it this way but it kind of makes sense especially the progressive jackpot slots and how you will win more in theory by making the maximum bet and playing all the lines. Also blackjack is a game where how others act and react can certainly have negative and positive outcomes. I know you are supposedly playing against the dealer or the house but if you have have ever sat at a blackjack table and made a wrong hit or split, people are not shy about letting you know. Also it seems to be true that blackjack can be played skillfully based on Ed Thorp's 1962 book Beating the dealer. I also understand that roulette can be played by betting on one color and doubling your bet exponentially every time you can always walk away with profit Granted not everyone is smart enough to count cards in blackjack or has the bankroll to beat roulette in the way I mentioned but one must give credit where credit is due. If you have a large number of entrants to the WSOP every year and the turn out is bigger each year and you have a pool of players that continue to place high that is skill and on a much more frequent basis than you have repeated lottery winners. Though I am sure if you had enough money and the odds on what numbers are called more frequently in said lottery one could beat the lottery quite easily as well repeatedly. In my humble opinion many of the games that you mention can be broken down into numbers and played with skill and will have a positive outcome financially over the long haul. I mean look at how chess is played and they map it in algebraic equation and teach computers to play and weigh options. Think about all the various outcomes in a game of chess pieces are moved, lost and can be gained. People are now making poker bots with a high degree of A.I. Not that I advocate their use but someone must understand the variance, odds etc. i.e. the chess masters or great poker players with a good knowledge of mathematics and computing. I for one think dede's post shows skill unfortunately pokers proof of skill is still in the works but we'll have it soon enough. Maybe our best minds working on this poker proof should look at these other games blackjack, chess etc and work backwards to our proof that will take our great game out of bondage and lead it to its grand exodus.

   Posted 8 months ago #

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