I'm inquiring about loop holes for running a poker tourney for fund raisers for fire depts, hospitals and such. I once heard that if a certain percentage goes to a non profit organization that it was perfectly legal? Would this qualify under the bone fide law or how creative am I going to have to get?
Poker Players Alliance Forums » State - CO
Non Profit Poker Tournaments
(15 posts)-
Posted 7 months ago #
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Each state has there own rules regarding fundraisers. To run any charitable fundraiser in the state of New York you must get a license from the New York Racing Assoc. (NYRA).
There are specific rules regarding location, employees, etc.check out the following web-site:
Posted 7 months ago # -
The tournnments I run are in Colorado, but I have been asked to run some in Nebraska here in the near future.
Posted 7 months ago # -
KodyB,
Check the "Ask Skallagrim" forum there's a posting on Colorado law. In general you cannot charge a fee to play in the game. I played in a charity game today in Ft. Collins and what they do is have a seperate table where players can make a voluntary donation but to play in the tournament is free.
The state law enforcment is aggressivly cracking down on poker games so you need to be very careful on what you do in regards to running a charity tournament. I would suggest that you contact an lawyer before you procede.Greg Greear
Northern Colorado ChairmanPosted 7 months ago # -
In Colorado three things are required for the law enforcement community to consider your game illegal. Risk, chance and reward. Risk = anything of value, cost, gift or entry fee required to participate. Chance = correctly or incorrectly the State of Colorado considers Poker to be a game of chance. Reward = playing for something of value ie a prize pool, free "stuff" or gift certificates. Remove any one of these items and the game becomes legal. No cost to play - game is legal. No chance - here we in the PPA disagree with the State - poker is a game of skill. Reward - if you're not playing for anything of value you can charge an entry fee (that goes to a charity) and you are fine. Exceptions - games played among a group that has a bone-fide social relationship outside of poker. A group of friends, a professional association hosting a game open only to its members etc qualify for this exception. The waters become murkier when you advance through these exceptions, for instance – a charity that has a membership base and only allows that membership to play in a tournament. Law enforcement would look at membership requirements, length of participation (did they join that night just to play etc) and exclusivity of joining requirements.
While it is always prudent to get the opinion of a lawyer when planning such an event, the lawyers are as far apart in their interpretation of the law as the present and past Attorneys General for the State. A past Attorney General issued the opinion that Poker is a game of skill and not bound by the present gambling statutes. The current one takes the opposite stance and lumps Poker in with all forms of gambling. Thus the need for and the mission of the State Chapter of the Poker Players Alliance becomes clear. We need some clarity and reason in the State statutes that recognize Poker aside from other games of chance.Gary R Reed
Colorado Director
Poker Players AlliancePosted 5 months ago # -
I live in Omaha and have played in a couple poker tournaments for fund-raisers. I have a buddy that is a cop and I asked him if these tournaments are truly legal and he said they are NOT legal but they will rarely break them up unless they receive a complaint.
I just recently started researching what states allow legalized poker as a fund-raiser as I want to get my state rep to see if they can propose a similar type law for NE. I make poker tables on the side (www.PicksPokerTables.com) so that would be good for me on that side but I was also thinking about opening up a poker room of sorts if it could be legal. Recently I got a call from a guy from MI about my poker tables and he said poker rooms are popping up all over MI. The 'catch' is that the poker tournaments must be sponsored by a non-profit organization (club, sports teams, medical fundraiser, etc) and that half the profits must go to the sponsor. An organization could easily make a grand or so in a tournament with only a few volunteers compared to a bake sale, car wash or magazine drive. With people cutting back their donations, charities are looking for an easier (and funner) way to raise money.
I did get in touch with my local state rep and they sent me back a document that shows poker is a game of chance (same items as above basically) and it's not legal in NE even if it's for a good cause. He said he may consider proposing it at their next session but would need a good case in order to do so. I'm learning as much as I can about how MI does it but if anyone else knows of other states doing something similar and/or can provide me some information to help me put together a good case as to why NE should have legalized poker for fund-raisers, please let me know.
Thanks!
Brian Pick
Omaha, NEPosted 1 month ago # -
IL is another state that has a Charitable Gaming law (you can find it here at http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1403&ChapAct=230%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B30%2F&ChapterID=25&ChapterName=GAMING&ActName=Charitable+Games+Act%2E).
There are are a few "consultants" in the Chicago area that have built up a base of charities they work with, and operate what are effectively traveling poker rooms. One is http://www.chicagocharitablegames.com/.
Posted 1 month ago # -
Thanks Wolf! That's great stuff! Their laws appear to be quite different than MI in a couple areas. Looks like MI allows you to have set locations while IL only allows a location to be used 4 times I believe. How the management company is allowed to make money and how much is different too.
Thanks again,
Posted 1 month ago # -
You also may want to take a look at the New Hampshire model for charity gaming. The statute may be copied from here; http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Charitable-Gaming/New-Hampshire/
Bottom line, in NH we have permanent card rooms running poker tournaments and low limit cash games every day of the week in many locations around the state. The charities love it, and while the return is not as good for the players as at a casino, the difference is not that great (most charity tournaments return 75% of the total buy-in to the prize pool, a few higher stakes ones return as much as 80%).
Skallagrim
Posted 1 month ago # -
That's a good website. Thanks. I like the permanent card room format much better as that's what I'd like to do.
I need to figure out how the card rooms make their money too. Is it on the entry fees and it can fluctuate depending on the number of entries, a flat consultant type fee or if there is a different format used? When I write up my proposal I want to present why the player would want to play in it (well managed tournaments with good competition and good payouts), why charities would love it (easy way to make a decent amount of money with minimal effort), why people like me will want to open up card rooms (love playing and being around poker and make some money doing it) and why it's in the best interest for cash strapped states to want to legalize it (card rooms pay fees, charities pay fees and maybe an additional fee for each player).
If anyone can summarize or point out some of these items for me, it would be greatly appreciated. Reading through all these state laws is good but a lot of legal jargon that is not fun to read. Real world explanations and scenarios is more beneficial. I'm a poker player - not a lawyer. :-)
Thanks
Posted 1 month ago # -
I am a lawyer and a poker player. ;)
The NH model is nice precisely because you have fixed locations and events, any time a player wants a game they know where to go.
The breakdown of the "take" is also stable and written into the law: A certain percentage is set as the maximum that can be returned to the players in any tournament (this may seem odd till you realize that it prevents charities from competing with each other over payback rates), I believe that maximum in NH is 80%, but it can be any number. For non-tournament poker a rake is taken. In other games the house wins its normal percentage.
Of the money that is not paid back to the players by way of being put in the prize pool or otherwise won, the charity must receive a certain percentage, and the state takes a percentage. The charities in NH must get "no less than 35 percent of the gross revenues from any game of chance minus any prizes paid" and the state gets 10%. The other 65% of the take goes to the game operators to pay expenses and make a profit.
If you seek it out, you will find the charities in NH LOVE this system (so do the operators) as they get a steady stream of revenue for no cost and very little effort (they are required to do some accounting and have a representative there when the games take place). The players generally think its OK and certainly better than nothing.
Charities are limited to, I think, 10 game nights per year. But because we have the permanent sites and operators, new charities trying to get in their 10 nights a year have almost a year long wait list to be beneficiaries!
Next best thing to outright legal poker, IMHO.
Skallagrim
Posted 4 weeks ago # -
Great! I'll focus in on the NH law.
Thanks!
Brian
Posted 4 weeks ago # -
Skallagrim, can I send you a draft of my letter for you to provide feedback on? I tried the PM option but I get a bad URL error message when I click on it.
Thanks
Brian
guppick at gmail.comPosted 3 weeks ago # -
Brian,
Thats weird about the bad URL ... but my computer knowledge is not enough to fix it.
But I will send you a PM (hopefully) with other contact methods as of course I am happy to help to whatever extent I can.
Skallagrim
Posted 3 weeks ago # -
More weird, I cant seem to get PMs working at all.
I will try that email address Brian.
Skallagrim
Posted 3 weeks ago #
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