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1. Skallagrim
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   The majority of this post was first made over at the Pocket5s Legislation forum. There I was responding to one person in particular. I have changed that part of the post to make it relevant to all non-religious right Republicans. With the McCain choice of religious right cheerleader Palin for VP, what I say here is all the more obvious.

   Its pretty clear that a lot of life-long small-government, individual freedoms loving republicans who also play poker are unsure about the upcoming election. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a small government Republican and being proud of that. But I want all of you who feel that way to note just a few things: the last 8 years of this Republican administration have seen the biggest growth in government since LBJ - almost ALL of it coming while they held the majority in Congress; also, the last 8 years of Republican government has seen NO advance in individual freedoms, in fact quite the opposite: they have been consistently attacked (poker being the most obvious example) because of the stranglehold of the religious right on the Republican party.

   I mention these points because I want to ask every small government, low taxes, individual freedom and responsibility, long time republican TO NOT VOTE REPUBLICAN THIS TIME, especially if you also love the game of poker. And I emphasize THIS TIME.

   For the sake of poker, the country and the Republican party, the nanny-state moralists have to be beaten back. The only way to beat them back is to make the Republican party pay a significant price this November. Only a loss will make the leaders rethink their pandering to this small segment of the population. Only a real loss will make them return to the core Republican values of the past. Only a loss will stop the Republican slide towards bigger and more intrusive government.

   If they can pull off a victory this time they will know that the votes of libertarian leaning small government, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility types are unimportant and that the fat cats feeding at the trow and the legislating of religious values can continue without hesitation. There must be a price to pay ....

   If you really can't bring yourself to vote for a Democrat even one time, so be it. Vote Libertarian or write-in a candidate. Or just don't vote. But if the alliance of big government interests and religious theocrats is to be stopped, it must be stopped now.

   And note that this is also the best long term outcome for the Republican party; getting slapped hard in November will FORCE them to rethink how they have governed and, hopefully, insure they never again get in the spot they are in now. And THEN you can start voting Republican again, and not hold your nose while you do it.

   Plus, it is important to note, the vast majority of poker's allies in Congress are Democrats. It will clearly take a Democratic majority and a Democratic administration to insure a pro online poker bill is passed and not vetoed.

   This is the election for poker players to stand up and be counted. Please do not vote Republican this time (unless. of course, you are lucky enough to live in one of the handful of districts with Republicans who support us like Sessions or Paul) and be sure to send a letter to every Republican you do not vote for telling them that they lost your vote by pandering to the religious right and taking away your freedom to enjoy the great American game of poker (among other things).

   Skallagrim

   Posted 2 years ago #

2. JPFisher55
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   Skall, I can't vote for Democrats. They started this big government, nanny state for their beliefs, which are just as faith based as the RRR beliefs. Voting Libetarian is a waste of time until their Presidential candidate can get close to 10%.
   So like 2006, I will refrain from voting. I am afraid that Sen. McCain is going to win the Presidency, but the Dems will control Congress. Despite McCain's VP pick, which is a pander to the RRR, I do not believe that he will continue the policies of the Bush administration concerning online gambling and online poker.

   Posted 2 years ago #

3. Skallagrim
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   I understand your position JPFisher and respect it. I am glad to hear you will not vote for McCain in 2008, neither will I (and I did vote for him in the 2000 New Hampshrie primary BTW). I think you are wrong about McCain not continuing the Bush policies against internet poker, however, and the VP pick sealed that conclusion for me. We are the obvious scapegoat for McCain to show his "social conservative" bone fides. I hope though, that you are right and I am wrong on that one, but I am not taking the chance and will vote Obama THIS TIME.

   Skallagrim

   Posted 2 years ago #

4. Rich Muny
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   Skall,

   Excellent post, both here and the original P5s version. Thanks for writing and posting it.

   Posted 2 years ago #

5. Rich Muny
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   JPFisher55 wrote:
   Skall, I can't vote for Democrats. They started this big government, nanny state for their beliefs, which are just as faith based as the RRR beliefs. Voting Libetarian is a waste of time until their Presidential candidate can get close to 10%. So like 2006, I will refrain from voting.

   I think a good way to help them get to 10% would be to vote for them. :-) Barr obviously won't win this year, but I don't think a vote for him is wasted. Rather, it's a good way to send both parties a message of our feelings regarding our individual liberties.

   Posted 2 years ago #

6. LAZRUS
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   Guvmint-in a way it's like dealers choice-a game I would choose not to play myself.
   OK yeah-for the 'couples' social gathering pot luck penny ante affair-
   but even then I find it somewhat, well boring?
   I prefer to us decide on the rules of the game before it starts.
   And isn't it remarkable that the game takes on greater importance and
   meaning when you actually have a "serious" stake involved?

   Any rational reading of modern history will show that both parties,
   but especially republicans have 'grown' the government.
   I guess if it benefits you, then its all good.

   It was the republicans that put 'god' on the money, and into the pledge,
   turning the coin of our realm into the sacrament, and our nations oath of civic faith
   into a 'publican' prayer. Jesus warned against this. And threw the moneychangers
   out of the temple. But you won't hear these Bible stories from the RRR preachers on the TV. Or radio. Or in the newspapers.

   All of the "Fristian" and so called Christian morality only applies to us
   little peasents and not to the wealthy, well connected diaper wearing fetishists, or big business lobbyist fellating globalist traitors, or the facist police state imperial war profiteers in charge right now.

   That the republicans have been aided and abetted by their DemocraticInNameOnly 'friends' on the other 'side' is
   no mistake or mystery. They are both serving the same master.

   I find it very amusing that the PPA would send me an email suggesting that I 'petition'
   the republicans to NOT include a plank in their platform outlawing online poker.
   Why should an action junkie craps shooter with 100 million dollars to play off
   care that I might not be able to enjoy some internet poker? It won't keep him from private jetting to another 14 hour highroller session whenever he feels like it-after the elections, of course. And really, how he spends his time and wifes money is his business. But it does bring the whole plutocratic 'holier than thou' ruling elite hypocrisy into stark contrast with how they actually live.

   So I won't be asking republicans for anything, and I dearly hope they continue to self destruct into the minority regional party that is their so very much deserved destiny.
   Kind of sad, really for the party of Lincoln, and preserving the union and emancipation and all, but the Bible says "As you sow, so shall you reap".

   Government is us, really. Our goverment is big because WE are big. And deciding on the size and scope and place of it in our national and business and personal lives is politics. And politics can be messy. It is all of our many different agendas, and our competeing representitives, discussing, debating, wheeling and dealing, and compromising, about all that affects us in our nation and our lives.

   The alternative to this is brute force, might makes right, law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, and other similar correctly rejected as less than ideal strategies for co-existence.

   Well, not so rejected as far as our historical and present day foreign policies go.

   Looking back through history, just the fact that we managed to get away from most of the "isms" indicates some progress has been made. Some would dearly love to return to the days when the church was the state, human slavery was business, and the wealthy men and their sires ran everything. Some would argue that not much has really changed.

   But even just to get to the mess where we are right now took the sacrifice of a lot of blood and treasure, so I don't really blame anyone for not wanting to go through all that again, even though it is our historical legacy, and moral birthright. But we can also avoid all that by participating in the civic affairs of our society as best we are able.

   I don't believe I have ever met anyone that I agreed totally with about everything. This is normal as we all are different. But we do also have so very much in common.
   And don't we all resent someone telling us to not do this or that because
   it is against their faith, or religion, and then watch them do whatever they please?
   Usually the very same thing they told us not to do? Think about it now, if you can't tolerate this, then what should be the best course of action? Shut up and just take it?
   Or maybe fight back?

   Nowadays we fight back by voting. If you don't want to or can't lead, then find someone who you think can do the job. To find that someone will take some effort, research, and study. Inform yourself. And if you discover that you actually disagree with them on something important, is it really the big picture? A deal breaker? If not-work it out, debate it, compromise. Support them with your time and money and effort.

   I understand if you are too busy or too poor or too lazy. Progress is hard work. Change requires it. Turning your poker 'skills' around from losing to winning
   can't be done by ignoring what you see at the table, or how others are playing.
   But it is YOUR choice, and your right to do as you feel best. That is freedom.

   So go ahead and sit out this hand-or all of them, if you so choose. There is a very small minority that is betting and really hoping you will. But if you want to play, you must buy in, and ante up. But just remember how you feel when you are still in the game and you can hear all the railbirds who never even sat down and played whining.
   About everything.

   Posted 2 years ago #

7. Rich Muny
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   LAZRUS writes
   I find it very amusing that the PPA would send me an email suggesting that I 'petition'
   the republicans to NOT include a plank in their platform outlawing online poker.
   Why should an action junkie craps shooter with 100 million dollars to play off
   care that I might not be able to enjoy some internet poker?

   What's amusing about it? We need to tell politicians where we stand. Surely we shouldn't just say nothing when an anti-online poker plank is added to a party's platform. You think the NRA would just sit back and do nothing if a party added a gun ban provision to its platform, hoping that the other party would help them out out of good will?

   You do realize neither Obama nor the Democratic Party Platform have said one word endorsing the right to play poker on the Internet, right? We have to earn that. They'll need to know we took votes from those opposed to us and moved them to those in favor of our rights to get anything. Otherwise, we'll find ourselves at the back of the line begging for our rights.

   We poker players tried sitting back and hoping for magic support from Congress. While doing this, our opponents made so much noise that politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle thought most of America wanted to ban online poker. When it came to a vote, we lost in the House 317-93 (HR 4411 in 2006, the bill that became UIGEA)! In a Senate vote in the late 90's, we actually lost 90-10 (S 474)! I've spoken to some staffers myself. They told me the GOP leadership actually thought all of America would cheer their effort to remove this "scourge" from the Internet. That's what doing nothing got us.

   We're not asking McCain for a favor. We're telling him and the GOP that we demand our rights. That's what we have to do.

   Posted 2 years ago #

8. OldBookGuy
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   JPFisher55
   Member
   Skall, I can't vote for Democrats. They started this big government, nanny state for their beliefs, which are just as faith based as the RRR beliefs. Voting Libetarian is a waste of time until their Presidential candidate can get close to 10%.
   So like 2006, I will refrain from voting. I am afraid that Sen. McCain is going to win the Presidency, but the Dems will control Congress. Despite McCain's VP pick, which is a pander to the RRR, I do not believe that he will continue the policies of the Bush administration concerning online gambling and online poker.

   JP, like I have told many who make this argument and the one where "it is a waisted vote", no, that is not the case.

   Consider a poor man who can only save 1.00 per week, is it a waist to do so or is he better off investing something, no matter how small in his future.

   So it is with a single vote and if everyone who was unhappy and wanted a third party would invest that one vote........

   It however has to start with each one investing the one and encouraging one other to do the same. It is your future, invest in it.

   obg

   Posted 2 years ago #

9. JPFisher55
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   OBG, a third party is a wasted vote until a substantial part of the voting public express interest in voting for a third party candidate. This last occurred in 1992 with Mr. Ross Perot. I voted for Mr. Perot because I thought that the more votes that he received the more likely that the policitians would do something about the deficit. Indeed, the 1990's was the best decade for less federal government spending.
   When a third party candidate receives the polling support that Mr. Perot received, then I would consider voting for him or her.
   This year a non-vote is as useful as a vote for Libertarian Party.

   Posted 2 years ago #

10. Daniel Doble
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    Great post Skallagrim from an independent but lately Republican-leaning libertarian type. Not that I needed convincing, but you articulated many of my thoughts better than perhaps I myself would have.

    Mr. JPF seems hell-bent on not expressing himself, which is the only way your opinion gets counted in any way, 10% polling rate or not. Waiting for other people that may never get asked their opinion in a poll to decide to vote makes zero sense to me, but we are all entitled to our opinion, and if you're not convinced already to vote Libertarian, nothing I can say will change that.

    As for me, I'm pretty sure I will vote that way. Add my vote to whatever percentage the polls say Mr. Barr is getting, since no poll has asked my opinion as of yet. I also agree with The Engineer here, especially when he points out that the Democratic Party and Obama have not endorsed our cause either. While there were a few things to like about Obama's speech at the DNC even for a small-government type like myself, like the bipartisan themes, we heard those from Pelosi before, and they were lies. I need something more positive, specific, and concrete, a reason to vote for him other than voting against McCain and the Republicans. Voting Libertarian serves that purpose just as well, or perhaps even better, because a Democratic vote gets lumped with everyone else who vote Democratic anyway. A Libertarian vote will correctly get interpreted as a loss by the Republicans of a small government, Libertarian type voter.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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